Donald Trump’s bruising return to the White House has sent many longtime foreign allies scrambling to get their distance, and according to a new piece from The Atlantic, that distance will last long after Trump is gone.
Trump’s second term as president has been marked by notable and widespread disrespect toward nations once seen as close U.S. allies. Between his attempts to level massive tariffs against nearly every nation in the world and his frequent breaches of diplomatic norms, Trump has created a hostile global environment in which allies no longer feel safe trusting in the stability of the U.S.
In a new piece for The Atlantic on Tuesday, staff writer Vivian Salama argued that this new dynamic, in which the nations of the world are working to establish a safe distance from the U.S., is bound to become the new normal for years to come, even after Trump leaves office and is potentially replaced by a more traditional, dependable administration.
Ironically, it was probably the corporate bootlicking and Robert’s clearly nonsense claim that the President is above the law that sealed the deal. An election abberation is one thing, the rest of the power establishment sucking his cock while declaring that the system will continue to allow and encourage the chaos is not something worth dealing with.
Who would have thought years ago not only that someone like Donald Trump would be the Republican nominee for president but that people would think he was a viable candidate to vote for?
This is what Putin wants to see. Chaos in the West.
Chaos in the West is a net positive for pretty much everyone else that is subjugated by it. I don’t even know if Putin is necessarily for it, even if aspects of it are certainly beneficial to his reign, but I can tell you everyone with a brain in the global South cheers whenever the empire shoots itself in the foot. And no, it’s not because of Putin, it’s because the culture itself is based around might makes right and feeding on others… but if others can fight against it, then it’ll have to feed on itself.
Puton is busy hiding from zelensky, nobody’s scared of putin no more buddy. Can’t use that boogeyman anymore.
America is on Putin’s side, though. When America is weakened, so is Putin.
All that post-WWII goodwill … Gone.
And the bad guys in WWII seem to be making a bit of a comeback
I’m tired of all this winning.
Nothing is permanent in international relations. Nations have permanent interests, not permanent allies.
Yes, but governments usually try to plan for outcomes that last more than 4 years. As it is now, the second a rational president is in place starts a timer counting down to a completely unknown situation. Who would want to take a risk on that? This leaves you with allies who are only there now, because they know thats all they can rely on. And if they aren’t rewarded immediately, in political terms, they won’t bother, either.
It’s like this. No shade to Americans, but you guys can do this shit in any four year period. You elected him TWICE.
No hard feelings, but you’re on your own.
IDK where you are typing this from, but far-right populism is surging in the EU and some other parts of the world.
In other words, you aren’t wrong, but take the situation more as a warning for yourself. Take a hard look in your own back yard, with wide eyes.
I’m in Australia, and yes, far right idiocy happens here too. But in this country our electoral system keeps the wackos contained. We have compulsory preferential voting. Elections here are decided by the middle, not the extremities.
That’s what we thought too…
Our two electoral systems couldn’t be more different. For a start in ours the politicians aren’t allowed to draw electoral boundaries.
We all thought our constitution had some pretty good checks and balances too. But boy…money talks
But in this country our electoral system keeps the wackos contained.
For now, but far right ideology shouldn’t be contained, it should be quashed. The US is a great example of what happens when it isn’t.
Also, the rise in far right ideologies across multiple countries should be a global concern. If one country under fascist control can cause significant damage to Australia imagine the effect of 4 or 5 scattered across the world.
That’s a positive, but IMO the fundamental issue is engagement-driven social media stoking extremist populism. If voters radicalize, especially in one direction, no voting system will protect you from that.
We… well, I was gonna was we realized it too late in the US, but we never really figured it out, and now we never will.
You folks need to neuter US social media as fast as you can. Cut the undersea cables, if you have to.
You’re not wrong to feel that way and you’re not wrong that it is a common opinion, specifically among Europeans. That said, I don’t think your politicians are nearly principled enough to stick to that stance. Some of them say it now because people want to hear it but the moment it becomes less awkward to do so they’ll go back to relying on America for all sorts of things that you don’t want them to. Hell, many of them won’t even make an attempt to distance themselves now, or worse, actively praise many of Trump’s actions.
The ones that make a fuss now won’t go back because of American exceptionalism but because it is economically in their interest to do so in a myriad of ways. This is why Europe has been content to rely on American military assets for so many decades. It was never a particularly good idea but it was economically expedient. The same is true of American media, tech companies, and financial institutions. It’s easier to let someone else have a bit of control in order to simplify things and politicians love simple sounding solutions.
Maybe I’m wrong and this is the moment that the EU usurps the US for good. That’s probably the best case outcome. I just don’t think there’s enough agreement between European nations on what needs to happen to get to that point in order for it to become a reality.
There is a great deal in what you say that I heartily agree with, and a few things that I don’t. I’m not European, although I do visit annually, so I have no horse in that race.
I would say that you repeat a tired American trope that has been outdated for at least 35 years now. That Europe gets more out of the NATO than America does.
The US gets a great deal out of NATO, arguably all lot more than Europe gets. For a start, the US has 31 permamant military bases across Europe and free access to another 19 hosted by member countries. It doesn’t really need to ask permission on how it operates on any of them. It also maintains another 275 smaller units and installations for free. This is not a one-way deal for Europe. For the US, a country that insists on projecting power to influence national policy objectives, the ability to operate like this is incredible. Does it pay rent? No. Does it seek agreement with the host country? No. It bombs first and informs later.
Secondly, wherever possible it forces US military hardware onto European countries by way of ‘interoperability’. Those F35s provide jobs for US workers. Same with parts, same bombs and weapon systems. All that hard cash flows back to the US. There is a reason why US administrations bitch and moan about Europe not pulling it’s weight on NATO but still won’t pull out of the region. It’s because the US gets a massive indirect benefit from the deal.
But what does Europe get in return? It’s supposed to be security guarantees. But the only country that has triggered NATO’s Article Five has been the US following 9/11. Hundreds of Europeans died in defence of what happened in far-off New York. Not that this has been appreciated by Trump.
Lastly, the biggest threat to Europe is Putin. And what has been the US response? Not great. All of Europe has been watching and wondering has all this been worth it. The one reason Europe has been tolerating America taking over much of its foreign policy is for a security trade-off. Now it seems the arrangement is worthless.
I’m not European, but I’m watching events. Nothing dramatic will happen in the short term. Spain cancelled it’s F35 contract. European countries have universally increased their defence budgets, not from US pressure, but from the realisation that security is unlikely to arrive from America. Countries have failed to support the US openly. First time since WW2. The whole world turned their back on the stupid Iran war. Things have changed irrevocably. However, they will only visibly change over time. You guys are sleepwalking into isolation.
Let’s revisit the subject in 10 years and see how things have turned out?
I appreciate your response both in quality and in tone. Thanks for that.
To be clear, I never meant to imply that the US gets nothing out of NATO. It is clear that we do for the reasons you mentioned and countless others. I was simply saying, in much the same way you did, that EU nations allowed that situation to exist because spending less on defense was good for them domestically in an economic sense. It was not a good decision beyond the short term from a security perspective unless the US could be guaranteed to be a righteous actor forever and that is obviously not something that can ever be guaranteed. Treaties and alliances are great. Dependence is not.
It is true that some countries have taken action to distance themselves from the US under Trump. It is also true that many of the citizens of the EU want their governments to take more action on that front. As an American, I would rather the EU lead the world in most respects as I trust most of their governmental systems to represent their people better than ours does.
Still, money rules the world and the US has a lot of it. Greed is a powerful motivator and I would bet that it is going to entice a lot of European politicians to make unpopular deals with the US and it’s corporate representatives under the next administration. Despite the EU as a whole better representing it’s people there are still too many instances of their governments manipulating or outright ignoring popular sentiments for me to believe that something like sidelining the US is within the realm of possibility, even if most of their citizens wanted to do so.
As a last note I would add that I believe eliminating reliance on the US is something the EU absolutely should do as much as possible. It is the only reasonable answer to the insanity taking place in our government. Nothing I’ve said should discourage action towards that goal. I’m just trying to be realistic about how I see that playing out.
You’re right, we need a lot of reform.
Trump is the symptom not the cause.
If anything Trump is doing the world a favour by dropping the pretence that the US is a good global citizen that just happens to have hundreds of military bases worldwide, an infinite money hack and nukes.
The US is a brutal imperialist power that genocides or destroys anyone who gets in its way. People with sense have known this since before Vietnam but the narrative pushers are finally high and dry.
He’s both
Russia finally winning the cold war ig
This is the real bottom line. MAGA seems to think that Russia is on their team.
Are there people who still don’t know this or are just realizing this?
Unfortunately, yes there are.
I talked to an idiot the other day who said Carney only rejected a trade deal with the USA to “stay in power”… they apparently are not aware Carney already has a majority, is very popular ATM and does not have to face an election for some 3 years.
Some people are just too dumb to realize when they are wrong and will die on their chosen dumbass hill
I do have to wonder about their logic. If rejecting a trump deal kept him in power, one would conclude that a majority of Canadians agree that we should not make that deal, or a majority of his base.
So even in their own dumbass world their explanation still makes no sense
Carney rejected a Trump deal because Canada is a democracy. This is terrible!
well let me explain, you start assuming they have any logic… you just went down the rabbit hole from there
People voted for Brexit, people voted for AFD, people voted for LePen, people voted for Meloni. Y’all tend to forget that this isn’t only an American problem.
You can’t be this dense though
How am I being dense?
Well, for one, you replied to yourself and not to the person who replied to you.
It happens more slowly than you might think.
Here in Australia the US has been our major ally since WWII and is generally seen as the enforcer holding off Chinese expansion in our region.
When the tariffs were announced ours were minimal and largely to our benefit anyway.
The general feeling was, the Americans are having a bad day, but we can weather that to maintain our long term relationship.
We have an agreement with the UK and US to build nuclear submarines, which would be helpful in maintaining control in south east Asia. This is a long term strategy with many billions involved, likely to stimulate entire regions in Australia. However, the arrangement is looking very unappealing presently and no one actually believes the US will deliver on their end.
I think the summary is, everyone knows that Trump is not a reliable partner but he will be dead soon, and these relationships run pretty deep.
We should lose friends over this (not that that is going to sink into the MAGAt morons’ thick skulls), but I hope we can go back to being civil once the cancer is removed.
It’s not going to be removed. I think the US is turning into a cyberpunk corpo state, more quickly than I could have imagined; Trump is just the unwitting setup.
Trump has laid bare our (rest of the world) complete risk exposure. Financial houses and strategists are making it clear. Politicians very much aware that their voters do not want a “special relationship” with America. Only the extreme right here support him.
No Trump. Americans.
The first term was forgivable as long as they learned from it. Instead they celebrated it and cried out for more.
It’s happening in Germany. It’s happening in France. It’s happening in Australia and Canada and Italy and Japan and pretty much everywhere. Somehow, in spite of a proven record of failure and catastrophic consequences, right wing ideology continues to grow like a cancer across the globe.
The US got to this point with help from foreign billionaires, as well as domestic ones. Elon Musk, Rupert Murdoch, Sundar Pichai… The grift is global and putting your vitriol toward those who might take your side will leave you friendless when it happens to you where you live.
People gave up instead of showing up and that was a costly mistake.
Many people mean well, even if they live in bad places. Have the grace to encourage them to keep resisting, even if that resistance is as small as protest or even voting, for your own sake.
Oh, yeah? Who voted for Brexit? Who voted for LePen? Who voted AFD? Who voted for Meloni? Don’t be so quick to blame Americans when your own countrymen are doing the same shit.
Need to caveat this that not all Americans. The country is incredibly polarized and pissed off at itself from within. It’s a hot cesspool mess inside and there are many who sympathize with the rest of the world and abhor the cancer within.
And how does “not all Americans” limit the damage to the rest of us?
Might provide a little hope that Americans from within are actually more on your side than his.
Look, I’m sorry for all this stupid horrible shit happening because of the absolutely asinine decisions being made by fascist hopefuls elected by arrogant and ignorant sociopaths. My hate for today’s reality runs as deep as yours, but it gets to be accompanied by its best friend, shame, as well.
You are not at fault. But nothing good will come from all this and it is what it is.
It’s totally irrelevant if it’s all USians or just a few of them. The US is a inherently unstable country, winner takes it all. When people elect a less idiotic president, it will just take a few years until the next Trump-Level guy wins again.
Also the republican presidents I experienced in my life got more unhinged every cycle, Regan, old Bush, young Bush, Trump. Who will be next one? One day there will be another Republican president.
The only way out would be a fundamental refactoring to not be a failing democracy.
Pigs will fly through a freezing hell before that happens. So the only rational thing is to understand the empire fell, the King has no clothes and keep a wide berth around the US in all future dealings.
Yeah, the system is rotten and appears to be reaching its experimental conclusion. Technofeudal Christofascism wants so badly to hammer the final nail in the coffin of so-called American democracy (which was always a facade for corposlavery…or just straight up slavery).
If the country ever actually gave a shit about true democracy, ranked preference voting and much more representative chambers would have existed. But it’s only ever been about wealth and classism, it’s just now the facade has been completely torn off to expose the rot for everyone to smell.
Who will be next one? One day there will be another Republican president.
Yes. Just look at two prominent, potential Republican presidential candidates for the next few decades: dark lord and antichrist lecturer Peter Thiel’s boy JD Vance and unhinged, rabid anti-communist Marco Rubio. There are probably others of a similar caliber, but I try to forget.
I can’t stand this argument. It’s the exact same logic as blurting out “not all men” when women rightfully express how they should be cautious when interacting with them in certain contexts.
Sure, not all Americans. That just doesn’t matter in the slightest when there’s a large enough chunk of them to get the world in the mess it is now. If they get their shit together maybe people will stop generalizing as a means of precaution for the sake of sparing headaches. The problem is with them as a whole, not the people understandably steering clear.
Everyone ignoring that he still has a 40% approval rating. That’s 137m people who like what’s going on.
Let’s just lock the door and wait for the dumpster fire to burn itself out.
Recent polls have his approval down to 29%. Which is still way too high, but when people can’t heat their homes this winter, I expect those numbers to drop even further.
You going by fox new polls? Not sure how else you’d find an approval rating that high.
Yeah, a lot of people are still in love with him. They’re brainwashed lead-poisoned idiots and fascism lovers. Makes me wish it were easier to emigrate out of the dumpster fire.
A clear majority of voting Americans either voted for Trump or didn’t vote because they didn’t care if he won. Its not just one idiot.
A clear majority is not necessarily everyone. 51% constitutes a clear majority.
Everyone under 18 was ineligible to vote and their opinions were immaterial. Convicted felons can also have their voting
rightprivilege revoked.So, just realize a lot of people are pissed and suffering from within, too.
49.8% of people who voted, and ~65% of voters voted.
So about 32% of all voters voted for Trump, and 35% did not care enough to stop him.
Yeah, and fuck those 35% pieces of shit.
As your historical enemy how many presidents do I have to go back before it becomes all Americans?
The good ones fled after the revolutionary war.
Historical enemy? So Russian? Glass houses, man.
You should learn more history if you think Russia is.
For most of the past century they have been. What country are you from then?
Canada.
Canada hasn’t been our enemy since the treaty of Ghent when Canada was still part of the UK. Perhaps you ought to learn some history.
If only there were some way to choose where to be born. Wasn’t given much of an opportunity to flee after the revolutionary war.
I apologize for your parents being terrible people. At what point are you able to renounce your citizenship?
Yes, because denouncing citizenship would absolutely be the most viable solution in finding a place to live. Other countries love to accept nationless humans.
Then how do you assist America’s enemies?
Try to take hybrid warfare into account. Not for nothing was Putin paying buildings full of trolls to poison internet culture for years and years. They couldn’t automate it with an LLM back then.
The tech bros will be more than happy to help him automate some of that work. You know, to promote ‘free speech’.
No war but class war - hating the people of any country is bullshit.
Almost twice as many Americans voted against Trump as people live in your entire country (assuming Canadian from the instance). That’s a ridiculously ignorant blanket statement to make. I loathe our government and the assholes who support it as well, but I don’t hate entire countries for having evil shitty leaders.
The point, you are missing it.
It’s not that “not all Americans”, it’s that you inflicted him on the rest of us. If you are butthurt at the rest of the world for rejecting the US you might have a rethink.
I didn’t inflict him on anyone - I voted against him 3 times. Rejecting the US government is the absolute correct response, as it can’t be trusted. But a country’s government is not all of its people.
Once again, personal responsibility doesn’t mean shit. The Americans inflicted him upon us. That you personally didn’t has no actual bearing on reality. You may not like it, you probably hate it, but you share collective responsibility for Trump as a nation.
So, if the rest of the world reroutes around you as a damaged and dangerous state, that should be an expected outcome. Save your pouting, and collectively deal with it.
Saying that, I do appreciate your helpless frustration. But we all have our own political problems in our own countries. If your country is a absolute fucking trainwreak and set to destroy all normal and reasonable order, we owe all of you nothing. And if you open your eyes real wide you can see the globe rapidly sidestepinng away from you in real time. This situation won’t change an inch if you elect a jolly, sane Obama next time. Because elemental MAGA runs deep in your DNA. The only question is when will it surface next?
The rest of the world rerouting around us a damaged and dangerous state is fine, the correct course of action even. But hating an entire nation of people for their leader is an ignorant response. In meatspace people have to do what the can to protect themselves from malicious governments like ours. Online, I’m an individual, and so are you. What our governments do means fuck all here.
I probably hate our government more than you - it almost certainly affects me more. But bigotry is not okay.
You will probably have to point out where I said that hating all Americans is ok? I don’t think that I said anything about hating anyone. I said, more or less, that America is a damaged society. Others have pointed this out as well. It’s just best to ignore them, work around them and hope for the best. This crap won’t end with Trump.
This is a cliche, fair enough, but my best friend is American, and now an Australian. Why would I hate him just for being born in a different place. I’ve also acknowledged that a great many Americans hate Trump. That is immaterial. He’s still your representative, he acts in your name and almost 50% still vote for him. All the rest doesn’t change a lived reality.
We can’t change the minds of other people, all we can do is act on the situation we’re in.
We are going to sooner or later have to take out the fucking trash.
When the time comes and this shit rises up in other countries like Germany, these countries do not expect help from us nor will they get it.
Because we’re busy solving our own problems for once.
This is a basic thing that will always exist, countries with terrible governments. All I’m saying is to not judge an entire country by its government. Boycott it, hate the government, all fine. But don’t hate the PEOPLE simply because of where they live. Except the ones that support the government, of course!
hate entire countries for having evil shitty leaders.
This is a popular thing to do on lemmy and it’s honestly 50/50 if you get downvoted to hell for saying it’s bad.
Yup, one of the nice things about Lemmy is that downvotes mean even less here than they did on reddit!
Yeah I wish I could just turn them off for me globally. My mobile app doesn’t allow that unfortunately.
I assume you’ve been online in the last four years, and seen that all Russians are at fault for the invasion of Ukraine?
Why would you assume that Americans wouldn’t be seen similarly?
I’ve seen it said, and it’s dead wrong. Why would this be any less wrong?
Whether it is wrong or right is irrelevant. It is.
It’s an incorrect claim that’s made, yes. That doesn’t mean you also have to make it.
Revoke his citizenship and send him to The Hague.
“Long after Trump is gone” isn’t the same as permanent. Just sayin’.
Trump is a symptom, not the cause. It’s permanent.
Until a civil war cleans it all up.
Ha, all the shit that has been done in less than 2 years and not one fucking peep. Americans have proven far too lazy to expect anything other what they have done so far. This is only the beginning of the new Amerikkka.
Nah, going where the US is, that has definitely not happened in the last two years. I don’t remember the US before Reagan, but Republican governments have been walking into the MAGA direction ever since. It’s just Trump who’s the current symptom. All this is a trend that was followed for about half of a century.
I’m afraid you, like Amerikkkans, are fooling yourselves. The toothpaste isn’t going back in that tube and the world will never trust the US again. Everyone with a sense of reality outside of the US can see the country is collapsing financially and morally. 25 - 50 years tops. It’s about to start to get really ugly.
What’s it like, blindly hating 350 million people you’ll never meet? It must be exhausting.
Ok patriot. Little less yankee doodle dandy, and a bit more humility would serve you and your countrymen well. Be well.
What county do you live in?
Ha, yet another two week old account.
i’m sure your country is a bastion of good policy and decisions, with a spotless record
if you’re gunna cast stones be sure you don’t live in a glass house
The two states of being: bigot or patriot. Got it. Thanks for clearing that up. Continue with your hatred
This is permanent. Trump has shown that the idea the US is stable and orderly is a lie. Instead, he got away with an attempted coup (albeit the coup itself didn’t succeed), and has upended US foreign policy and relations without any restraint by congress and minimal restraint by the clearly partisan supreme court. He has shown that the US governmental system and constitution is far weaker than anyone could have believed.
Trump will be gone in a couple of years, but he has revealed that the US is always just one vote away from another capricious lunatic as president who can do a lot of damage in a short amount of time. There is also no guarantee that there won’t be another attempted coup in 2 years time without legal consequence should the republicans not like losing the White House. Countries can’t rely on the word of the US now. Even if the next president is reasonable and tries to restore the old order, the damage is done and countries are going to be hedging their bets, always thinking “but what happens when the next Trump comes along?”.
The big loser is the US - countries deferred to US wishes in many things and allowed US businesses access to their markets, in no small part because it was seen as an exchange for the peace and security the US hegemony provided.
The only fix to restore confidence would be serious reform in the US and it is very clear that is not going to happen. Congress is permanently divided between 2 parties that hold up the status quo in the US. There is no realistic prospect of constitutional reform, with no party likely to get a 2/3rds majority, and even if they did get a majority it is clear there is no real political understanding in the US about the actual problems it is facing.
That is assuming Republicans lose the White House.
I’m pretty sure social media is going to rig the election for Vance. Not illegally, but just by tipping the algorithms everyone is now addicted to, and by flooding the zone with LLM spam.
Nothing is permanent if the timespan is long enough, but given most governments don’t look much past next election it might as well be.
This is permanent in the sense that Trump has revealed the US constitution is a paper tiger and the US is run at the whim of the President. He has shown how weak the US governmental and legal system is, with one lunatic able to cause global chaos relatively unrestrained. Even when decisions are eventually undone by the courts, the damage has already been done and the President can just try a different route to the same goal.
That can’t be undone by time; it needs serious reform in the US. Going forward, even if there is a reasonable president, all the US allies will now hedge their bets and will no longer want to be over reliant on the US. The US will always be regarded as unreliable now as it is effectively always just one election away from another potential Trump.
