Yep, two wrongs don’t make a right. But no stone or board related directly to the man and not his victims. Should have been left intact. The museum of course wasn’t the issue and should be rebuilt. A nice new structure with no ties to the monster other than outlining and attacking him for his atrocities.
Similarly maralago should be burnt to the ground. And redeveloped into a memorial/public toilet. Where no little fascist will want to pilgrimage.
no stone or board related directly to the man and not his victims. Should have been left intact.
I disagree with you because I don’t believe that history should ever be repeated. Seeing how he acted, through how he shaped the country, is important to preventing that
For example, did you know this particular location has a grand, 400 foot golden elevator?
Put yourself in the shoes of an average MAGA supported who does not agree with genocide
They’d get to Eagle’s Nest, step in that golden elevator and think, “wow, this is nice. A lot like Trump’s tastes.”
Then They’d get top the top and see the grandeur of Eagle’s Nest and the incredible view. They may never have realized Germany was quite properous during the early third reich
Then they’ll get to the monument and museum portions. They’ll be reminded of the 7 million dead and the horrors of genocide and authoritarians
I think that’s a good event to get the gears in their head turning. Whether it’s direct parallels like Hitler’s gold elevator resembling Trump’s affinity for gold, or the understanding that the Holocaust was only possible with the indifference of the average German who was content to live in relative luxury
Many Nazis supported Hitler because of the same mundane reasons the average person supports Trump or Putin. Promises of lower cost of living, increased income, prestige on the global stage, and most importantly a scapegoat to blame problems on
I’m going to just gloss over your extremely naive scenario where these Nazi lovers go to the top of the elevator and then open their eyes and learn something. Cuz I mean come on.
Instead let’s move on to this. This isn’t hypothetical. We already know that Nazis make pilgrimages to this place. Some of them even take pictures about it and then go on to be Republican legislators. This place which was always a monument to Hitler, still is. Or was maybe hopefully. This isn’t a matter of debate. You’re arguing for an active Nazi Monument to to which Nazis make pilgrimages to.
I’m all for the museums. I’m all for the remembrances. Build them. But I don’t want to keep the God damn Hitler monument. Also I don’t know if you fucking noticed, but it ain’t stopping history from repeating. So maybe a better way to stop history from repeating is to tear down The Monuments glorifying the history we would don’t want repeated. Then build your museums.
With regard to the allies. The United States specifically. We’ve never had a healthy Reckoning with our past. They gave many Nazi scientists amnesty. And the fascist themselves were inspired by our own powerful racists and fascists. Who never felt repercussions who are why we are in the position we are in today.
America has never dealt with our past. It took me way too long to realize we did in fact prosecute a genocide on American Indians. And I’m from the Indian Territories and learned about the Trail of Tears in elementary school. I can’t think of knowing a single Native American in my whole life.
The thing with the Nazi scientists I can let slide, given the times. We knew our next enemy would be Russia and wanted a leg up. It was either take them under our wing or let the Soviets have 'em.
Don’t feel too bad. As someone who was born into the tribe. Officially on tribal rolls. Received a settlement from the early '80s for treaties broken against our people over 100 years before. Attended a number of tribal cultural events as we tried to recover our heritage. Including my own naming ceremony. It didn’t actually strike me until my late teens early twenties just what my grandmother was talking about when she spoke of Indian School.
Fortunately hers was not one of the ones you hear reported about sometimes in the northern United States and canada. But run by a different nearby tribe of the Wyandot. It was still about indoctrination and cultural Erasure to an extent. Just not the explicit tones of mass murder.
Sometimes it’s Society hiding the skeletons in its closet. Other times it’s parents just wanting their children to have something better and not to be focused and bitter on things that can’t be changed. We couldn’t have known ourselves. But just because some things didn’t be changed doesn’t mean others couldn’t and shouldn’t. Such as people’s awareness of these things. The General public school education version that I got in the seventies and eighties was quite whitewashed and sterilized. And even then it was pretty bad.
The Nazi scientists however I couldn’t get behind. Not because of any sympathies with Soviet Russia or the like. Just an aversion to the state. The state will always do what is easy. Rarely what is right. We had no business generally mucking around in the Cold War as we did. At best only a pyrrhic victory like Korea. Generally losing everywhere else and only increasing the death and destruction. In the end. It was the Soviets that brought themselves down. Not us or Reagan.
Yep, two wrongs don’t make a right. But no stone or board related directly to the man and not his victims. Should have been left intact. The museum of course wasn’t the issue and should be rebuilt. A nice new structure with no ties to the monster other than outlining and attacking him for his atrocities.
Similarly maralago should be burnt to the ground. And redeveloped into a memorial/public toilet. Where no little fascist will want to pilgrimage.
The best way to prevent repeating history is to remember it. Monuments and museums oike this and Auschwitz are incredible tools for teaching history
Advocating for that erasure of Nazi history is likely only to find you allies in Nazis and Holocaust deniers
Who’s advocating for it’s erasure? Was taking down Confederate monuments an erasure of their history?
You said this:
I disagree with you because I don’t believe that history should ever be repeated. Seeing how he acted, through how he shaped the country, is important to preventing that
For example, did you know this particular location has a grand, 400 foot golden elevator?
Put yourself in the shoes of an average MAGA supported who does not agree with genocide
They’d get to Eagle’s Nest, step in that golden elevator and think, “wow, this is nice. A lot like Trump’s tastes.”
Then They’d get top the top and see the grandeur of Eagle’s Nest and the incredible view. They may never have realized Germany was quite properous during the early third reich
Then they’ll get to the monument and museum portions. They’ll be reminded of the 7 million dead and the horrors of genocide and authoritarians
I think that’s a good event to get the gears in their head turning. Whether it’s direct parallels like Hitler’s gold elevator resembling Trump’s affinity for gold, or the understanding that the Holocaust was only possible with the indifference of the average German who was content to live in relative luxury
Many Nazis supported Hitler because of the same mundane reasons the average person supports Trump or Putin. Promises of lower cost of living, increased income, prestige on the global stage, and most importantly a scapegoat to blame problems on
I’m going to just gloss over your extremely naive scenario where these Nazi lovers go to the top of the elevator and then open their eyes and learn something. Cuz I mean come on.
Instead let’s move on to this. This isn’t hypothetical. We already know that Nazis make pilgrimages to this place. Some of them even take pictures about it and then go on to be Republican legislators. This place which was always a monument to Hitler, still is. Or was maybe hopefully. This isn’t a matter of debate. You’re arguing for an active Nazi Monument to to which Nazis make pilgrimages to.
I’m all for the museums. I’m all for the remembrances. Build them. But I don’t want to keep the God damn Hitler monument. Also I don’t know if you fucking noticed, but it ain’t stopping history from repeating. So maybe a better way to stop history from repeating is to tear down The Monuments glorifying the history we would don’t want repeated. Then build your museums.
Even the Allies didn’t torch the place.
With regard to the allies. The United States specifically. We’ve never had a healthy Reckoning with our past. They gave many Nazi scientists amnesty. And the fascist themselves were inspired by our own powerful racists and fascists. Who never felt repercussions who are why we are in the position we are in today.
America has never dealt with our past. It took me way too long to realize we did in fact prosecute a genocide on American Indians. And I’m from the Indian Territories and learned about the Trail of Tears in elementary school. I can’t think of knowing a single Native American in my whole life.
The thing with the Nazi scientists I can let slide, given the times. We knew our next enemy would be Russia and wanted a leg up. It was either take them under our wing or let the Soviets have 'em.
Don’t feel too bad. As someone who was born into the tribe. Officially on tribal rolls. Received a settlement from the early '80s for treaties broken against our people over 100 years before. Attended a number of tribal cultural events as we tried to recover our heritage. Including my own naming ceremony. It didn’t actually strike me until my late teens early twenties just what my grandmother was talking about when she spoke of Indian School.
Fortunately hers was not one of the ones you hear reported about sometimes in the northern United States and canada. But run by a different nearby tribe of the Wyandot. It was still about indoctrination and cultural Erasure to an extent. Just not the explicit tones of mass murder.
Sometimes it’s Society hiding the skeletons in its closet. Other times it’s parents just wanting their children to have something better and not to be focused and bitter on things that can’t be changed. We couldn’t have known ourselves. But just because some things didn’t be changed doesn’t mean others couldn’t and shouldn’t. Such as people’s awareness of these things. The General public school education version that I got in the seventies and eighties was quite whitewashed and sterilized. And even then it was pretty bad.
The Nazi scientists however I couldn’t get behind. Not because of any sympathies with Soviet Russia or the like. Just an aversion to the state. The state will always do what is easy. Rarely what is right. We had no business generally mucking around in the Cold War as we did. At best only a pyrrhic victory like Korea. Generally losing everywhere else and only increasing the death and destruction. In the end. It was the Soviets that brought themselves down. Not us or Reagan.
You’re from Oklahoma and don’t know any natives? How is that even possible?
That’s rather the point. The genocide was very complete.
I grew up in Oklahoma and work in Oklahoma. I know nearly as many natives as I do anyone else.