Hi thanks for looking at my query. I recently as a joke changed some writing on the board of a friends EAL (English as an Additional Language) classroom from English to German. She liked the idea, but using Google Translate resulted in an overly formal phrasing that made it seem more a demand than a suggestion or polite request.
So my ask, if you speak (or I guess write) another language I would love to request you take a moment to translate “Please stack chairs at the end of the day” into whichever language you can help me with, it should be a polite request though.
I’m really not sure what the composition of her class is but she is a fan of languages as a whole so even if it’s not a language that is represented in her class I am sure it will be a bit of fun and a talking point to figure it out.
If you have the time and the skills to help I really appreciate it, otherwise I appreciate you taking the time to read this post. Have a fantastic day.
Native here.
“Apila” is refering to the listener as “tú” (a.k.a. “you”).
“Apile” is refering to the listener as “usted” (basically a more formal version of “you”).
In Spanish, despite both “tú” and “usted” refering to the 2nd person singular, different conjugations are used in each of them. “Tú” uses the standard 2nd person conjugation, while “Usted” picks the 3rd person’s one instead for whatever reason.
Ok, sorry to come across as ignorant, but to pick a random example would this be the difference between “Excuse me” and Excuse me sir/ma’am?" The content remains the same but it’s usage would fall more into a formal way of speaking?
If you as an adult were addressing a class of teenagers but were only making a request, not a demand would either be more appropriate?
Thanks for the insight I really appreciate it.
Italian has a similar thing, where it uses the “her” (“Lei”, often implied and capitalised when explicit) pronoun conjugation as a formal structure, regardless of the person’s gender. From what the other Spanish commenters have said I would say it differs from it in that it conveys respect more than kindness, so it would sound weird in your context - but it might also be because I would translate the “command” version in the 2nd person plural and this only applies to the singular.
It used to be used with your parents not that long ago, that is almost completely gone now but it is still very common when talking to your teachers, businesses, officers, old people, in letters, etc. It is also the default between strangers, but that has been slowly changing since the 2000s. It’s called “dare del lei” (lit. “To give the her”), and “possiamo darci del tu?” is a common question to “handshake” use of the regular 2nd person.
I’m super grateful for the explanation, does it make sense that I lack an adequate frame of reference for this? I did Latin many years ago, poorly. Since then it’s been primarily English with a touch of guidebook Japanese phrases. I just don’t have the mental agility to make the connections. But I am curious and when I am no longer working shift work I might delve into some language learning to improve the neural elasticity.
It does, it’s a very weird thing if you’re not used to it, you’re not dumb or anything. I recognize it’s a completely alien concept, there is no analogue in English, and it stacks on top of the singular and plural "you"s being different and having gendered words making it extra difficult to fully conjugate a sentence for speakers of languages that lack those features. But 90% of the time the meaning gets across anyway and we don’t care :) (unless you’re French /j)
Not the person you asked, but a native Spanish speaker myself. The formal way to say “excuse me” (for example to a teacher or boss, or to a stranger on the street if you wish to be polite) would be “disculpe señor/a”, or “discúlpeme señor/a”. You can also remove señor/a and simply say “disculpe” or “discúlpeme” to anyone and it will still carry the same meaning, since the verb in both cases already implies it’s about yourself.
The informal way would be “disculpame” or “discúlpame”, although in this case adding señor/a sounds way off. You can definitely add a name though, ie, “discúlpame Shads” and that would be okay.
Edit: as for your specific request of an adult teacher asking something to the students, that would depend a lot on the relationship they have, some teachers are distant while others get more familiar with time. I’ve seen both. By all means the formal one would always be correct. I’ve seen teachers with a usually more relaxed or casual approach revert to the formal when they are getting serious or upset.
You know the more I reflect on this the more sure I am that I am falling into a trap that I am sure a lot of English speakers fall into. I am trying to apply English rules to Spanish as there is a shared language root and a bunch of shared words and at some level syntax. I need to acknowledge that Spanish is a distinct mature language and trying to treat it as a different dialect of English is a wall I need to stop butting my head off.
Really appreciate you stepping in to clarify for someone with my calcified language abilities, the lack of comprehension is entirely my own.
I think I will go with “Por favor, apila las sillas al final del día. Gracias.” and save deeper understanding until I can devote more time and mental energy to understanding Spanish as Spanish.
You rock!
Fair conclusion, but don’t be so hard on yourself. Honestly as a native speaker these things don’t come across as “rules” for me even though of course they have rules. It’s just the natural and obvious way of using the language. And that’s something very hard to get right if you weren’t raised with that language. In other words, I’ve heard a gazillion people say so many examples of phrases in Spanish since before I have memory, that hearing or seeing something outside of the expected pattern stands out immediately, but I can’t always explain why.
It’s unreasonable to expect ever having the same level of fluency with a language you weren’t raised with. I’ve been speaking English half my life and I still screw up sometimes.
Thank you, I should disclose that I am a Gen X Australian, we do self deprecation at a super advanced level. I absolutely get that language becomes so engrained that things just don’t sound/read as correct for reasons you would understand if you took the time to think about them, but you don’t really have to expend any effort to know it.
I promise I’m not being too hard on myself just accepting there’s things I don’t know and haven’t earnt a shortcut to bypass learning to understand.
Also, if you are adhressing the request to a group, it could be better to go with “Por favor apilen las sillas al finalizar el día”, plural
That’s a great point, thank you.