There is an entire group of Orthodox Jews - I believe they’re the Neturei Kart - whose interpretation of the Tora is that Israel should not exist.
Then, of course, there are groups such as Jews For Peace who aren’t against the existence of Israel itself but are against what they do.
I think that maybe what might have confused you is that about half the Jews in America still support Israel, but they’re not even the majority of Jews in the World, plus in average American’s (whether Jew or otherwise) take on most such thing tends to be quite to the right and more racist than in most other developed countries: right now the Jews outside America and Israel are much more likely to be against the actions of Israel than those in those two countries.
Yes, many Jews are Zionists, but many Jews are not and some are even anti-Zionists. In fact, this itself is the single biggest argument against the claim that Israel represents the Jewish People (it clearly can’t if some Jews are against what it does “in their name” and some are even against its mere existence) and hence why it is those who slander as “anti-semites” those who criticize Israel who are the real anti-semites since any claim supported by equating Israel with the whole of the Jewish People logically requires that those Jews who disagree with Israel aren’t really Jews (just like the NAZIs thought there were “good Jews” and “bad Jews”)
I think that maybe what might have confused you is that about half the Jews in America still support Israel, but they’re not even the majority of Jews in the World, plus in average American’s (whether Jew or otherwise) take on most such thing tends to be quite to the right and more racist than in most other developed countries: right now the Jews outside America and Israel are much more likely to be against the actions of Israel than those in those two countries.
So you start out by talking about the opinion of 15-20% of Jewish people. From there, a lot of that group also supports Israel. So you’ve trimmed that small number down do a singe digit percentage of jewish people. If you want to beat a drum about what 7% of Jews think, thats cool and all I guess, but its hardly relevant.
there are groups such as Jews For Peace who aren’t against the existence of Israel itself but are against what they do.
Israel started with the Nakba on day 1, kicking 450,000 people out of their homes at gunpoint, and with mass murder and abuse, and herding them into camps. That was day 1 minute 1 of the states existence and it hasnt changed for 80 years. How can “Jews for Peace” legitimately support “Israel” but deny the camps? Where is their “peace” or how will they get to equity for a crime this large? There is no conceivable path to get there and there never will be. If “Israel” exists it exists with a concentration camp of Palestinians kicked out of their homes. They cant just imagine “Israel” into existence without the reality of those murdered and bereft people. I’d go so far as to say that Jews for Peace are charlatans.
Sadly that does mean that things are even worse than I thought and that a far, far higher percentage of Jews than I believed are pro-Genocide.
If it’s still the case that 80% of Jews in Israel support Israel’s actions in Gaza and a further 45% in the US also support them, then using the numbers in that link you provided it turns out that literally most Jews in the World (54%) support the Genocide.
More than half of an ethnicity being Supremacists either directly being incredibly violent in their supremacism or supporting those of their ethnicity who are, is spectacularly bad and an indictment of the social context which shaped those people’s beliefs and morals.
No wonder that the person I was replying to saw it as a Jewish problem.
Well, many comments here have said similar things and some provided sources to prove me wrong on the 90% claim. I appreciate that you’re arguing in good faith, so I’ll just respond to everyone here and say I take that back. My personal experience comes mostly from working for an Israeli company, so I may be biased. I won’t make the same mistake in the future.
That said, my core point was never intended to be about how many jews condemn the genocide. It was a complaint about the audacious hypocrisy of supporting the genocide while using that same treatment of your ancestors to put yourself on moral high ground or to solicit empathy. It’s a real thing that happens, and my complaint applies to whomever it applies to.
Look, mate, we’re talking about Supremacists here, and no matter what’s their race all such people are extremelly Racist, so their entire viewpoint on people and the world is “me and those like me are more important and more worthy than everybody else” which logically translates into both “somebody targetting those like me is a horrible and unacceptable thing” and “whatever we do to those not like us it is always morally right and acceptable”, as well as the fables of racial victimhood used to justify the “defense of the race” were individuals who are not and never were victims themselves murder and steal from others as a group simply because they are more powerful.
It doesn’t help that the take on the leftwing side of “Liberalism” in Neoliberalism (in some places know as “Identity Politics”) actually reinforces Racism and Discriminatory views by explicitly saying that races can be victims and people of specific races should get things that those of other races should not (aka “Positive” Discrimination), so Jews have been portrayed as better people than those from other ethnicities (which is Racism even if claimed to be “positive”) making it very hard for others to recognize that Jews too can be Racist as fuck and even Supremacists.
So, yeah, sadly for you it seems like you’re surrounded by extremelly Racist Jews and maybe because of the political and press environment you grew up in and are surrounded by, you’ve been unconsciously indoctrinated with the Discriminatory view that if somebody is a Jew then they are implicitly better people than those who are not and hence you did not at all expect them to be Racist, much less to the level of Supremacists.
It makes sense that in an environment were people from a specific ethnicity are implicitly expected to be better people and deserving of better treatment because of nothing else than their ethnicity, A LOT more of those will end up becoming Racists, even extremelly so, than those who do not receive such treatment - this shit works just as well when you’re a majority in a country (like Jews in Israel) or dominant minority (like Whites in Apartheid South Africa) as it does for a racial group which for some reason get better treatment due to race where they are, such as Jews in Germany - whilst at the same time those around them, receiving the same indoctrination but from another point of view, are far less vigilant towards people from that ethnicity and more dismissive of anti-social beliefs and behaviours by people from that ethnicity.
So whilst extreme Racist and Supremacist beliefs and behaviors aren’t an inheritly Jewish thing, they’re far more common to arise amongst Jewish communities in certain contexts because there those Jews recieve favorable treatement merely because of being Jews, are expected to and even told by others that they are better people merely because of being Jews and are under a far less vigilant eye from everybody else in regards to anti-social behaviours and ideas such as extreme Racism merely because of being Jews.
(Imagine that NAZIs kept rulling Germany for 7 decades instead of falling in the 40s, giving special treatment to Arians and telling them they are a superior people. What would be the level of Racist and Supremacist beliefs you would you expect from people who see themselves as Arians living in such an environment?)
That said discrimination on the basis of ethnicity is still called Racism and believing in one’s ethnic superiority and right to oppress those of other ethnicities is still Supremacism, and growing up in an environment where you’re treated better and assumed you are an inherently better person with better morals because of your ethnicity increases the likelihood of you becoming a Racist and even a Supremacist, which is the point I’m making.
There is an entire group of Orthodox Jews - I believe they’re the Neturei Kart - whose interpretation of the Tora is that Israel should not exist.
Then, of course, there are groups such as Jews For Peace who aren’t against the existence of Israel itself but are against what they do.
I think that maybe what might have confused you is that about half the Jews in America still support Israel, but they’re not even the majority of Jews in the World, plus in average American’s (whether Jew or otherwise) take on most such thing tends to be quite to the right and more racist than in most other developed countries: right now the Jews outside America and Israel are much more likely to be against the actions of Israel than those in those two countries.
Yes, many Jews are Zionists, but many Jews are not and some are even anti-Zionists. In fact, this itself is the single biggest argument against the claim that Israel represents the Jewish People (it clearly can’t if some Jews are against what it does “in their name” and some are even against its mere existence) and hence why it is those who slander as “anti-semites” those who criticize Israel who are the real anti-semites since any claim supported by equating Israel with the whole of the Jewish People logically requires that those Jews who disagree with Israel aren’t really Jews (just like the NAZIs thought there were “good Jews” and “bad Jews”)
Your math isnt mathing. I think you’re the confused one. 80-85% of the world Jewish people live in the US or Israel.
https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2025/06/09/jewish-population-change/
So you start out by talking about the opinion of 15-20% of Jewish people. From there, a lot of that group also supports Israel. So you’ve trimmed that small number down do a singe digit percentage of jewish people. If you want to beat a drum about what 7% of Jews think, thats cool and all I guess, but its hardly relevant.
Israel started with the Nakba on day 1, kicking 450,000 people out of their homes at gunpoint, and with mass murder and abuse, and herding them into camps. That was day 1 minute 1 of the states existence and it hasnt changed for 80 years. How can “Jews for Peace” legitimately support “Israel” but deny the camps? Where is their “peace” or how will they get to equity for a crime this large? There is no conceivable path to get there and there never will be. If “Israel” exists it exists with a concentration camp of Palestinians kicked out of their homes. They cant just imagine “Israel” into existence without the reality of those murdered and bereft people. I’d go so far as to say that Jews for Peace are charlatans.
I stand corrected.
Sadly that does mean that things are even worse than I thought and that a far, far higher percentage of Jews than I believed are pro-Genocide.
If it’s still the case that 80% of Jews in Israel support Israel’s actions in Gaza and a further 45% in the US also support them, then using the numbers in that link you provided it turns out that literally most Jews in the World (54%) support the Genocide.
More than half of an ethnicity being Supremacists either directly being incredibly violent in their supremacism or supporting those of their ethnicity who are, is spectacularly bad and an indictment of the social context which shaped those people’s beliefs and morals.
No wonder that the person I was replying to saw it as a Jewish problem.
Well, many comments here have said similar things and some provided sources to prove me wrong on the 90% claim. I appreciate that you’re arguing in good faith, so I’ll just respond to everyone here and say I take that back. My personal experience comes mostly from working for an Israeli company, so I may be biased. I won’t make the same mistake in the future.
That said, my core point was never intended to be about how many jews condemn the genocide. It was a complaint about the audacious hypocrisy of supporting the genocide while using that same treatment of your ancestors to put yourself on moral high ground or to solicit empathy. It’s a real thing that happens, and my complaint applies to whomever it applies to.
Look, mate, we’re talking about Supremacists here, and no matter what’s their race all such people are extremelly Racist, so their entire viewpoint on people and the world is “me and those like me are more important and more worthy than everybody else” which logically translates into both “somebody targetting those like me is a horrible and unacceptable thing” and “whatever we do to those not like us it is always morally right and acceptable”, as well as the fables of racial victimhood used to justify the “defense of the race” were individuals who are not and never were victims themselves murder and steal from others as a group simply because they are more powerful.
It doesn’t help that the take on the leftwing side of “Liberalism” in Neoliberalism (in some places know as “Identity Politics”) actually reinforces Racism and Discriminatory views by explicitly saying that races can be victims and people of specific races should get things that those of other races should not (aka “Positive” Discrimination), so Jews have been portrayed as better people than those from other ethnicities (which is Racism even if claimed to be “positive”) making it very hard for others to recognize that Jews too can be Racist as fuck and even Supremacists.
So, yeah, sadly for you it seems like you’re surrounded by extremelly Racist Jews and maybe because of the political and press environment you grew up in and are surrounded by, you’ve been unconsciously indoctrinated with the Discriminatory view that if somebody is a Jew then they are implicitly better people than those who are not and hence you did not at all expect them to be Racist, much less to the level of Supremacists.
It makes sense that in an environment were people from a specific ethnicity are implicitly expected to be better people and deserving of better treatment because of nothing else than their ethnicity, A LOT more of those will end up becoming Racists, even extremelly so, than those who do not receive such treatment - this shit works just as well when you’re a majority in a country (like Jews in Israel) or dominant minority (like Whites in Apartheid South Africa) as it does for a racial group which for some reason get better treatment due to race where they are, such as Jews in Germany - whilst at the same time those around them, receiving the same indoctrination but from another point of view, are far less vigilant towards people from that ethnicity and more dismissive of anti-social beliefs and behaviours by people from that ethnicity.
So whilst extreme Racist and Supremacist beliefs and behaviors aren’t an inheritly Jewish thing, they’re far more common to arise amongst Jewish communities in certain contexts because there those Jews recieve favorable treatement merely because of being Jews, are expected to and even told by others that they are better people merely because of being Jews and are under a far less vigilant eye from everybody else in regards to anti-social behaviours and ideas such as extreme Racism merely because of being Jews.
(Imagine that NAZIs kept rulling Germany for 7 decades instead of falling in the 40s, giving special treatment to Arians and telling them they are a superior people. What would be the level of Racist and Supremacist beliefs you would you expect from people who see themselves as Arians living in such an environment?)
FYI
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4301023/ says that Jewishness isnt a race. There is no “Jewish” gene.
Jews are not a biological race, but rather an ethnoreligious group and a people with shared ancestral, cultural and religious roots.
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/are-jews-a-race/
They are in essence, simply an ethnic group. The are an ethnic group without strong racial characteristics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnicity
So you can leave the word “race” out of this. Its essentially a club at this point.
Ethnicity is the correct word here.
That said discrimination on the basis of ethnicity is still called Racism and believing in one’s ethnic superiority and right to oppress those of other ethnicities is still Supremacism, and growing up in an environment where you’re treated better and assumed you are an inherently better person with better morals because of your ethnicity increases the likelihood of you becoming a Racist and even a Supremacist, which is the point I’m making.
fair point.