Quebec will now ban street prayers as the Coalition Avenir Québec (CAQ) “super-minister” of identity, Jean-François Roberge, has just passed his bill to strengthen secularism.
This isn’t even secularism. Secularism would ban anyone from doing these activities in an official capacity, or public funds from being used for these purposes.
Banning individuals from religious expression is not secularism. That’s the state imposing religious persuasion (or lackthereof).
Is it though ? I’m advocating literally to prevent organised institutions forcing their fantasies onto others.
That’s literally the opposite. In addition I would expect « worldviews » to be rooted in reality and science rather than in mysticism.
So yeah maybe this would be for the best.
This isn’t even secularism. Secularism would ban anyone from doing these activities in an official capacity, or public funds from being used for these purposes.
Banning individuals from religious expression is not secularism. That’s the state imposing religious persuasion (or lackthereof).
And you said this:
Fine by me. Let’s call that extended secularism with aim of ending religions.
And now you’re trying to backtrack by claiming this:
I’m advocating literally to prevent organised institutions forcing their fantasies onto others.
No, I distinguished quite plainly between public institutions and individuals in my first comment. You dug in your heels that we shouldn’t just ban public institutions from forcing one set of beliefs on others, but that we should also force individuals to give up their own beliefs (thus, “ending religions,” in your words).
The thing is, any attempt to systemically force people as individuals to give up their beliefs, is literally “institutions forcing their beliefs on others.” So, no, you’re just doing mental gymnastics to rationalize your own prejudice.
Also,
In addition I would expect « worldviews » to be rooted in reality and science rather than in mysticism.
Would you? Well, where do we draw the line? You realize science hasn’t plumbed the depths of understanding the universe yet, right? Some things are still theoretical. Can we call those things “reality and science,” or are they mere belief until proven beyond reasonable doubt?
For instance, is quantum gravity theory just religious mumbo jumbo? What about string theory? What about unified field theory? Hell, what about the big bang theory, the big crunch theory, and any speculation about dark matter and dark energy, or the origins of life and consciousness?
Who gets to determine what constitutes “science and reality,” and what constitutes “religion and belief,” particularly in these edge cases where there is no general consensus? The publishers of the journals? The peer review board? The dean of faculty for the science department at such-and-such big-name university? The administration of that university, who get to determine who keeps their job as dean of faculty? The board-of-trustees?
Academic freedom is already coming under fire in this political environment, and gatekeeping has always been a problem in academia besides. Do you really want to promote state-mandated and enforced worldviews based on some vaguely defined “reality”? Reality has always been a consensus, and nothing more.
How much further would it go? The social sciences? The humanities? All the subjects where “reality” can’t be simply boiled down to a set of quantifiable data?
Because this would go a lot further than just banning religions. And even if that was all it would do, I would still be against it, even though I’m not religious, because forcing people to adopt my worldview is no better than when religious people do the same thing.
Your need to justify your own beliefs are blinding you. A wall of text arguing semantics… you agree with the far right in USA that is rooting their system in Christianity? Or you agree that because of birthright via your mother you are superior to me?
I’m also pretty confident that doubts and theories in science are unrelated to mysticism. If only in intents.
My guy, they just laid out your argument and demonstrated the particular flaws in your reasoning. What you’re describing isn’t secularism, it’s wishing the state would enforce your particular world view.
Guess what? Removing religious mysticism from the equation doesn’t make that viable or ethical. They already tried this during the French Revolution and it sucked. Giving the state powers to attack nebulous things like metaphysical beliefs is reverting back to the problems we had for thousands of years under Popes and Kings and Caliphs and Emperors.
So much projection and deflection in two short paragraphs, and yet you dismiss all of my (valid and factual) arguments as “a wall of text rooted in semantics” without even attempting to engage honestly with a single thing that I said? Bold strategy, let’s see if it pays off for you…
Your need to justify your own beliefs are blinding you.
I’m not the one attempting to justify my beliefs, you are. My argument here from the start is that institutions shouldn’t enforce beliefs or worldviews, and that individuals should maintain their rights to religious expression.
You’re the only one here arguing otherwise, claiming that we should enforce one set of beliefs because it’s the one that you hold, that everyone who holds other beliefs should be forced to give them up because you don’t agree with them.
you agree with the far right in USA that is rooting their system in Christianity?
Not even a little bit. Holy strawman. They’re attempting a religious theocracy, which by definition involves public institutions enforcing one religion. That’s the opposite of what I’ve been saying from the start.
Or you agree that because of birthright via your mother you are superior to me?
Another strawan. Who the fuck said anything about a “birthright”?!? When did I claim in any way that I’m superior? At what point did anyone mention my mother?
You’re the only one here trying to grant yourself exceptionalism, pretending you’re superior to others. Never in a million years would I agree that you should be the sole arbiter of what everyone else gets to believe.
À belief isn’t rooted in reality. It is a concept close to religions, relying on faith rather than evidence. Are you close to religion yourself maybe?
I’m calling from being responsible and to stop the cancer that are religions. The good it once brought is now inferior to the atrocities it sustains so it is time to call for its end.
That is the stands I take. Nothing related to beliefs.
Do you not realize how much “belief” is in science?
Someone believed in the Higgs Boson before it was proven.
We still today believe in the big bang theory, not because it’s been proven, but because there’s a consensus that says it’s the most plausible explanation.
Science still doesn’t tell us even what to believe regarding the origins of life and consciousness.
We believe in dark matter and dark energy, not because they’ve been directly observed, but because they’re the best possible explanations that we have at this time for certain phenomena that we believe to be their effects.
We believe that there must be some overarching principles that can unite the formulas of quantum physics and general relativity, but no one knows what they are.
Often in medicine, decisions are made based on what the doctors believe, even when there isn’t 100% certainty.
So stop pretending there’s no such thing as belief in science, because there absolutely is.
In some ways it will protect Muslim children as well, not being exposed to crucifixes and requiring Catholic schools to accept Muslim students.
Also, it could give the children a choice to engage in religious practices. Private religious schools should not exist at all, they are a tool for indoctrination and separating children from those with different beliefs is abusive.
That said, the PQ are racists and their goal actually is to discriminate against Muslims.
Generally speaking? I suspect most of our issues currently and previously are either caused by religions or are using religions in a form or another. Look at USA / Israel if that’s not obvious. Even Buddhists have been killing over religion. Sects in Japan have done horrible things…
I could remove 1 trait of humanity I would seriously consider removing the soft spot for the love of mysticisms.
And thus limiting religious practices is sensible and has the benefit to decrease exposure to non involved persons.
Religions do call for a lot of violence don’t get me wrong. I’d even make the claim that most evil acts that we attribute to religion tend to have it as a pretense. The crusades for instance each had a main goal that was there independent of religion.
But then you have the good that religions mandate. Sikhism with IRS community meals for instance. Zakat in Islam is another good example.
Antisemitism doesn’t happen without religion. Think about everything downstream of the Judaism/Christianity/Islam splits. Think about the impact of The Church being the de facto cultural force in Europe for a millennium. Think about how much harder it is to whip a population into supporting your expensive conquest without a Divine Right or Moral Imperative. Sikhism exists because of how shitty life was under Islam and Hinduism in the region, their current “mostly chill” status does not negate the past suffering.
And in a broader sense, consider how much fraud exists because people are willing to accept claims not backed by evidence. The normalization of magical thinking is probably as harmful as the actual power wielded by entities like the Catholic Church.
Antisemitism without religion is called racism. And because a corrupt caste of people use religion as a pretext to control and funnel wealth. Doesn’t mean the underlying religion itself calls for that.
As for having a population supporting conquest independent from religion look at the east India company, both world wars, and many others.
I’m not saying religious organizations are a benefit or arguing for or against that.
But how is the world a better place because the banned prayer rooms in universities?
Whether some of those people follow a good religious leader or not. Their religion generally calls for overall good.
It stops public praying as a virtue. When praying is only done in private you can’t judge people being a worse Christian etc for not participating.
So you’ll have a more secular society with more room for people to practice their religion as they see fit. Not doing things just because it’s expected of you.
Like if there’s prayer room at a school. More people will use it because they don’t want to be seen as a bad Muslim. Even if they wouldn’t normally pray at those times.
There is no logic to this person’s stance, they just want to do harm to the other. They wrap that in a veil of impartial rational reasoning to quell the cognitive dissonance.
If this law was phrased as anti-loitering to keep homeless people off sidewalks or banning private rooms for nursing mothers they would be up in arms. It’s functionally the same, but since it targets their preferred adversary they nod in approval.
Who tf does this help
The Quebec right wing, which paradoxically is secular and pro abortion.
Secularism? As long as it’s applied across the board - including Christians and others - this seems sensible.
This isn’t even secularism. Secularism would ban anyone from doing these activities in an official capacity, or public funds from being used for these purposes.
Banning individuals from religious expression is not secularism. That’s the state imposing religious persuasion (or lackthereof).
Fine by me. Let’s call that extended secularism with aim of ending religions.
So in other words, forcing your worldview on others because you don’t agree with theirs?
That’s no better than forced conversions…
Is it though ? I’m advocating literally to prevent organised institutions forcing their fantasies onto others. That’s literally the opposite. In addition I would expect « worldviews » to be rooted in reality and science rather than in mysticism. So yeah maybe this would be for the best.
Let’s recap.
Literally, what I said was this:
And you said this:
And now you’re trying to backtrack by claiming this:
No, I distinguished quite plainly between public institutions and individuals in my first comment. You dug in your heels that we shouldn’t just ban public institutions from forcing one set of beliefs on others, but that we should also force individuals to give up their own beliefs (thus, “ending religions,” in your words).
The thing is, any attempt to systemically force people as individuals to give up their beliefs, is literally “institutions forcing their beliefs on others.” So, no, you’re just doing mental gymnastics to rationalize your own prejudice.
Also,
Would you? Well, where do we draw the line? You realize science hasn’t plumbed the depths of understanding the universe yet, right? Some things are still theoretical. Can we call those things “reality and science,” or are they mere belief until proven beyond reasonable doubt?
For instance, is quantum gravity theory just religious mumbo jumbo? What about string theory? What about unified field theory? Hell, what about the big bang theory, the big crunch theory, and any speculation about dark matter and dark energy, or the origins of life and consciousness?
Who gets to determine what constitutes “science and reality,” and what constitutes “religion and belief,” particularly in these edge cases where there is no general consensus? The publishers of the journals? The peer review board? The dean of faculty for the science department at such-and-such big-name university? The administration of that university, who get to determine who keeps their job as dean of faculty? The board-of-trustees?
Academic freedom is already coming under fire in this political environment, and gatekeeping has always been a problem in academia besides. Do you really want to promote state-mandated and enforced worldviews based on some vaguely defined “reality”? Reality has always been a consensus, and nothing more.
How much further would it go? The social sciences? The humanities? All the subjects where “reality” can’t be simply boiled down to a set of quantifiable data?
Because this would go a lot further than just banning religions. And even if that was all it would do, I would still be against it, even though I’m not religious, because forcing people to adopt my worldview is no better than when religious people do the same thing.
Your need to justify your own beliefs are blinding you. A wall of text arguing semantics… you agree with the far right in USA that is rooting their system in Christianity? Or you agree that because of birthright via your mother you are superior to me?
I’m also pretty confident that doubts and theories in science are unrelated to mysticism. If only in intents.
“Semantics”
My guy, they just laid out your argument and demonstrated the particular flaws in your reasoning. What you’re describing isn’t secularism, it’s wishing the state would enforce your particular world view.
Guess what? Removing religious mysticism from the equation doesn’t make that viable or ethical. They already tried this during the French Revolution and it sucked. Giving the state powers to attack nebulous things like metaphysical beliefs is reverting back to the problems we had for thousands of years under Popes and Kings and Caliphs and Emperors.
So much projection and deflection in two short paragraphs, and yet you dismiss all of my (valid and factual) arguments as “a wall of text rooted in semantics” without even attempting to engage honestly with a single thing that I said? Bold strategy, let’s see if it pays off for you…
I’m not the one attempting to justify my beliefs, you are. My argument here from the start is that institutions shouldn’t enforce beliefs or worldviews, and that individuals should maintain their rights to religious expression.
You’re the only one here arguing otherwise, claiming that we should enforce one set of beliefs because it’s the one that you hold, that everyone who holds other beliefs should be forced to give them up because you don’t agree with them.
Not even a little bit. Holy strawman. They’re attempting a religious theocracy, which by definition involves public institutions enforcing one religion. That’s the opposite of what I’ve been saying from the start.
Another strawan. Who the fuck said anything about a “birthright”?!? When did I claim in any way that I’m superior? At what point did anyone mention my mother?
You’re the only one here trying to grant yourself exceptionalism, pretending you’re superior to others. Never in a million years would I agree that you should be the sole arbiter of what everyone else gets to believe.
That is your personal belief. You are advocating to force it onto others who do not share it. How is that different from forced conversion?
À belief isn’t rooted in reality. It is a concept close to religions, relying on faith rather than evidence. Are you close to religion yourself maybe?
I’m calling from being responsible and to stop the cancer that are religions. The good it once brought is now inferior to the atrocities it sustains so it is time to call for its end.
That is the stands I take. Nothing related to beliefs.
Do you not realize how much “belief” is in science?
Someone believed in the Higgs Boson before it was proven.
We still today believe in the big bang theory, not because it’s been proven, but because there’s a consensus that says it’s the most plausible explanation.
Science still doesn’t tell us even what to believe regarding the origins of life and consciousness.
We believe in dark matter and dark energy, not because they’ve been directly observed, but because they’re the best possible explanations that we have at this time for certain phenomena that we believe to be their effects.
We believe that there must be some overarching principles that can unite the formulas of quantum physics and general relativity, but no one knows what they are.
Often in medicine, decisions are made based on what the doctors believe, even when there isn’t 100% certainty.
So stop pretending there’s no such thing as belief in science, because there absolutely is.
Oooohh you just don’t know what words mean. Okay. I’ll let someone with more patience for stupidity handle this. Good day to you.
That’s what this law does, it specifically targets Muslims who need to pray during the day while pretending to be for everyone.
In some ways it will protect Muslim children as well, not being exposed to crucifixes and requiring Catholic schools to accept Muslim students.
Also, it could give the children a choice to engage in religious practices. Private religious schools should not exist at all, they are a tool for indoctrination and separating children from those with different beliefs is abusive.
That said, the PQ are racists and their goal actually is to discriminate against Muslims.
It would be sensible. But what’s the benefit?
Generally speaking? I suspect most of our issues currently and previously are either caused by religions or are using religions in a form or another. Look at USA / Israel if that’s not obvious. Even Buddhists have been killing over religion. Sects in Japan have done horrible things…
I could remove 1 trait of humanity I would seriously consider removing the soft spot for the love of mysticisms.
And thus limiting religious practices is sensible and has the benefit to decrease exposure to non involved persons.
Great harm had been done in the name it religion but you’re overlooking the good that’s been done.
I don’t think the good comes anywhere close to balancing the evils justified by religion.
Religions do call for a lot of violence don’t get me wrong. I’d even make the claim that most evil acts that we attribute to religion tend to have it as a pretense. The crusades for instance each had a main goal that was there independent of religion.
But then you have the good that religions mandate. Sikhism with IRS community meals for instance. Zakat in Islam is another good example.
Antisemitism doesn’t happen without religion. Think about everything downstream of the Judaism/Christianity/Islam splits. Think about the impact of The Church being the de facto cultural force in Europe for a millennium. Think about how much harder it is to whip a population into supporting your expensive conquest without a Divine Right or Moral Imperative. Sikhism exists because of how shitty life was under Islam and Hinduism in the region, their current “mostly chill” status does not negate the past suffering.
And in a broader sense, consider how much fraud exists because people are willing to accept claims not backed by evidence. The normalization of magical thinking is probably as harmful as the actual power wielded by entities like the Catholic Church.
Antisemitism without religion is called racism. And because a corrupt caste of people use religion as a pretext to control and funnel wealth. Doesn’t mean the underlying religion itself calls for that.
As for having a population supporting conquest independent from religion look at the east India company, both world wars, and many others.
I’m not saying religious organizations are a benefit or arguing for or against that.
But how is the world a better place because the banned prayer rooms in universities?
Whether some of those people follow a good religious leader or not. Their religion generally calls for overall good.
The population?
It stops public praying as a virtue. When praying is only done in private you can’t judge people being a worse Christian etc for not participating.
So you’ll have a more secular society with more room for people to practice their religion as they see fit. Not doing things just because it’s expected of you.
Like if there’s prayer room at a school. More people will use it because they don’t want to be seen as a bad Muslim. Even if they wouldn’t normally pray at those times.
It creates pressures and expectations.
Peer pressure will exist regardless though. This provides as space for people to pray in private.
Why not make the prayer rooms individual rooms? Would that not solve the edge case you describe?
There is no logic to this person’s stance, they just want to do harm to the other. They wrap that in a veil of impartial rational reasoning to quell the cognitive dissonance.
If this law was phrased as anti-loitering to keep homeless people off sidewalks or banning private rooms for nursing mothers they would be up in arms. It’s functionally the same, but since it targets their preferred adversary they nod in approval.